RE: Shotguns

SniperGod
SniperGod

Who the fuck decided that in every video game ever that if a weapon ever shoots more than one bullet at once like, say, a shotgun, it needs to do piss-all damage after five feet?

I'm not saying to make it realistic, I'm just asking why do they barely tickle your opponent after a certain range?

Would it really affect game balance that much if the shotgun did full damage with at least one fucking pellet at higher distances?

Not even the entire net of bullets you're spraying, just ONE. Please, for fuck's sake.

If game devs are so intent on making the shotgun a melee range weapon, why not just put a FUCKING MELEE WEAPON IN INSTEAD?

All urls found in this thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897#Military_use
eGremlin
eGremlin

@RumChicken

@VisualMaster

Emberfire
Emberfire

@SniperGod
Who the fuck decided that in every video game ever that if a weapon ever shoots more than one bullet at once like, say, a shotgun, it needs to do piss-all damage after five feet?

Because then you could use it for everything and there'd be no point to rifles or SMGs or anything else.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

Game balance, basically. Real-life shotguns are accurate as shit despite shooting a spread of pellets and devastating to be hit by besides, nevermind if you use slugs instead of buckshot. There's be no point in using anything else besides higher ammo reserves if you could do everything with a shotgun.

TechHater
TechHater

@SniperGod
Shotgun is too complex for the offshore slavs to work into the game if they're only being paid shit money by scamming Californians

And Californians can't do it themselves, that's why they hire slavs to do it, and spend their time on Instagram and Furaffinity

Give slavs a lot of money, don't restrict it or anything, and they might make a good shotgun or too

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@CouchChiller

Devastating to be hit by even from long range besides, that is. Close-range you're more of a smear than a man.

FastChef
FastChef

lmao shotguns don't shoot bullets

JunkTop
JunkTop

Also because firefights over 500m aren't in vidya because grafix, which makes rifles almost useless in console ports

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@CouchChiller
@BinaryMan
I said not REALISTIC, just BETTER THAN MELEE RANGE

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@FastChef

Slugs m80

"A shotgun slug is typically far more massive than a rifle bullet. One common .30-06 bullet, for example, weighs 150 grains (10 g). The lightest common 12 gauge shotgun slug is the 7⁄8 oz slug, which weighs approximately 383 grains (25 g)."

@BunnyJinx

You get one or the other for purposes of balance, basically, though a range extension for most games with shotguns would be nice.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Boy_vs_Girl

Whoops, pic related

Inmate
Inmate

@SniperGod
Shotguns IRL do actually do piss-all damage after five feet. Well not five, more like fifty, but yeah it applies. Pellets carry fuck-all worth of momentum and immediately lose it all to air drag. 50 yards is pushing the limit for a buckshot and you'll barely be able to seriously wound a deer at that distance, for birdshot you're limited with like 20 yards. That's with absolutely zero protection but the skin, if target is wearing clothes (esp. leather i.e. jacket) then your effective killing range with buckshot is like 15 yards. And yeah then there's also spread, for a shotgun that's normally 1" of spread per 3' of distance. Good luck even fucking landing pellets on your target to begin with at 50 yards.

Evilember
Evilember

@CouchChiller
You say that like it's not an extremely easy thing to balance while staying realistic.

Buckshot is 100% stopped by soft armor, while even non-AP intermediate cartridges swiss cheese kevlar.

JunkTop
JunkTop

maybe action movies lied to us…

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Evilember
Yeah but then you'd have to add in an armor mechanic, just to balance a "realistic" shotgun.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@Boy_vs_Girl
@haveahappyday
OP was talking about pellets.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@GoogleCat
There should be a proper armor mechanic regardless.

Shooting at a dude in full fucking kevlar and plates with 9mm or .45 should do less than dick, yet they're perfectly effective in shooters.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Evilember
Well actually yeah. Go play Insurgency. The devs said "fuck it" to ballance and just put in there as realistically represented IRL guns as they could. The only thing of ballance there is that different shit costs different amount of loadout points, with automatic and accurate shit costing more to equip. But otherwise it's the whole ballance is just your own situational awareness, which weapon to use best for your current playstyle.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Would it really affect game balance that much if the shotgun did full damage with at least one fucking pellet at higher distances?
Then what's the point of using any other weapon? You're right to complain, but it's for all the wrong reasons. Shotguns just need their spread dramatically reduced, E.Y.E. was decent if just for that alone.

Not even the entire net of bullets you're spraying
Hurg

Speaking of shotguns, I've wanted someone to bring in a gun similar to the UTAS UTS shotgun. Two barrels, 7 rounds in each. You can fire only the right or left barrel, or alternate. The idea of having one barrel filled with slugs and the other with buckshot or something else has always appealed to me.

@CouchChiller
There is a reason why the army supplies soldiers with rifles rather than shotguns you know.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

What exactly are the benefits to using a shotgun in any sort of vaguely-militaristic setting?

shotgun shells are heavier than rifle rounds
terrible performance past 50 yards against even lightly armored targets
near-useless against plate carriers
useless for suppression fire
ammo capacity is often garbage compared to an assault rifle, unless you use a heavy, bulky magazine

On the other side of things, though:
Can fuck up a door's hinges
Can shoot a ton of useless, gimmicky loads that'll harm the shotgun more than your target

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Poker_Star
Extremely high chance of a 1 shot stop when gunning down unarmored civilians.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Poker_Star
Trench sweeping and similar scenarios. Extremely effective and easily put all other arms to shame in that application.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Burnblaze
put all other arms to shame in that application.
The Flamethrower would like a word

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@DeathDog
And how are you going to proceed through the fiery blazing trench you just have swept you dipshit?

Soft_member
Soft_member

Vidya shotguns are just melee attacks and have little to do with actual shotguns.
I like them that way.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Poker_Star
What exactly are the benefits to using a shotgun in any sort of vaguely-militaristic setting?

There were called trench sweepers during WW1, Germany considered their use an illegal act of war:

American soldiers who were skilled at trap shooting were armed with these guns and stationed where they could fire at enemy hand grenades in midair.[2] This would deflect the grenades from falling into the American trenches and therefore protect American soldiers.

Unlike most modern pump-action shotguns, the Winchester Model 1897 (versions of which were type classified as the Model 97 or M97 for short) fired each time the action closed with the trigger depressed (that is, it lacks a trigger disconnector). Coupled with its six-shot capacity made it effective for close combat, such that troops referred to it as a "trench sweeper". This characteristic allowed troops to fire the whole magazine with great speed. The Model 1897 was so effective, and feared, that the German government protested (in vain) to have it outlawed in combat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897#Military_use

Evilember
Evilember

@SniperGod

Never played BFBC2
Never outsniped snipers from stupid ranges with a slug shotgun.

The was the day I knew that game was forever awesome when I could outsnipe snipers with a shotgun with no scope.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Someone with a basic sense for game design and balance.

Kill yourself realismfag.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@SniperGod
Go play some 7.62.

farquit
farquit

@SniperGod
If game devs are so intent on making the shotgun a melee range weapon,

Because shotguns ARE a melee range weapon, you ignorant faggot.

They are designed for fucking up people in close quarters combat, like exchanging gunfire inside buildings, not for getting bullseyes at 100 yards.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Who the fuck decided that in every video game ever that if a weapon ever shoots more than one bullet at once like, say, a shotgun, it needs to do piss-all damage after five feet?

Good game designers did.
If it was realistic there would be absolutely no reason to use any other weapon.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Inmate
Depends on the type of shot you're shooting, faget.

Using birdshot as an example at long-range shooting against humans is like using rubber bullets to say that 9mm isn't lethal.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@farquit
ebin

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

People who don't understand pic related or why its weapon balance was so perfect.

Namely because fuck realism the whole game so if the way a weapon worked didn't make any sense the experience wasn't so aggravating, but more importantly because weapon switching was fast while the action was slow and ttk was high. With one or two exceptions nearly every weapon was essential, and many encounters with other players would require the use of several weapons. Switching to the super shotgun at the right moment was very important.

True to form, the lesson every other developer took away from this experience was "shotgun so powerful, must be short range or it's not fair."

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Resident Evil: Shotguns

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Deadlyinx

If games were realistic you wouldn't even go in to begin with. Just send a drone and have the chairforce handle it like we normally do.

girlDog
girlDog

@SniperWish
My brain is telling me this is bubba.
My dick is telling me this is beauty.

HELP

RavySnake
RavySnake

@DeathDog
Why not both?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@RavySnake
Because it looks like hot shit but it's just smelly shit, the only thing you'll manage to light with that is dry grass

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Garbage Can Lid
The round has also been used for intimidation purposes. It may also be used as a less-than-lethal option for self-/home-defense, though the less-than-lethal aspect and safety are disputed, as the magnesium shards burn at approximately 3,000 °F (1,650 °C), which is more than enough to light a person, or house on fire.

This is from Wikipedia, so take that with a grain of salt. Salt is the antithesis of Spice.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@lostmypassword
Temperature is never a problem if the heated part has a high enough heat capacity. Anything that contains water, like your skin, is safe from short but intense heat.

JunkTop
JunkTop

If shotguns were realistic you'd never use anything else!

Like real life, right? You guys are fucking stupid.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

I'm not saying to make it realistic, I'm just asking why do they barely tickle your opponent after a certain range?
Balance / higher skill ceiling. By making the shotguns highly situational they make it a high skill weapon, noobs will either avoid it or use it at too longer range while skilled players will only use it in very tight quarters where long range engagements are unlikely or avoidable.

Personally I prefer shotguns done realistically with maps big enough that they are still range limited compared to other weapons.
ARMA is a great example as the shotty is effective to ~100m but rifles are effective to ~600m keeping the shotty a situational weapon. It's fine for CQB but not so great if you have to cover an open field.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Booteefool
Thats why you need to change it up a bit.

turn it into a napalm round

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@JunkTop
It's a map size issue, if the map doesn't have plenty of open spaces over 100m across then there is not disadvantage to using a shotty. In reality large open spaces are common, in vidya not so much.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

You know what I like? When shotguns fire individual bullets, each with mediocre or low damage individually but massive damage when combined, and a spread that isn't too large. That way the range is decent and against large enemies the shotguns are still effective

askme
askme

@Poker_Star
They are actually used by a lot of militaries because when you are going through a door having something that will drop someone without armor on the first hit is useful. While rifles are lethal they generally kill through blood loss which gives they guy you just shot 1-2 minutes of still being able to operate his weapon when all he needs is a couple of seconds.

DeathDog
DeathDog

This thread makes a lot of good points, but for me it mostly comes down to this:

With a rifle or whatever, it can hit things point-blank and at some range. Shotguns are only good point-blank, more or less. Thus, to me, rifles and such are objectively overall better for being less situational, and I rarely ever use shotguns at all, unless I absolutely know for certain I am ONLY going to be fighting things really really close, which basically means replaying a section I've already been through. Nobody says other guns are broken for covering a variety of situations with one gun, so why would it break shotguns? As far as I'm concerned, the average vidya shotgun isn't balanced by having no range, they're the worse choice for it. I just want a balanced shotgun. If that means giving it half decent range at the cost of less huge damage point-blank, I'd be fine with that. I don't care about realism, I just want a shotgun I want to use for once.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@DeathDog
I can't think of any game I have played where I couldn't use the shotgun effectively. It's normally just a case of using cover to close on enemies instead of engaging from where I first saw them.

The hardest time I have had using a shotty was the first checkpoint in STALKER SOC but even then they give you slugs that will reach out far enough if you are willing to take your time.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@haveahappyday
Except vidya shotguns never have even close to 100m effective range in the first place. And nobody's asking for that kind of range anyway, just for shotguns to be useful past spitting range.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Booteefool
yeah thats why i got a 3rd degree burn on my finger from lighting a match wrong

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Emberfire

shotguns are effective at 100 yards. theyre good for hunting birds. slugs are good upto around 150 yards.

rifles are good for 300+ yards.

having a shotgun function like a slightly longer melee weapon is stupid. also, shotguns dont spread that much. especially with something like 00 buck.

There have been many games to pull off a successful shotgun. battlefield and rainbow six titles. also swat 4.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@girlDog
All you need is an underslung chainsaw, and the right protective gear to protect your eyes from guts and your ears from the screams of the innocent .
God damn, I want to play a game where you just chainsawshotgun through hordes of enemies out in the woods.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Stark_Naked
Being able to sneak up and blast works in STALKER, no question. But considering that you can also be sneaky and line up a headshot from further range with practically any rifle or half-decent pistol and get the same "one shot and it's done" results, I still never found shotguns worth using. Plus, when you do get noticed and bandits or whatever are running around, with adequate skill you can still headshot them at midrange with most guns. But shotguns are useless beyond a certain point no matter how good your aim is.

It's not about being able to use shotguns at all, it's that most of the time, the tradeoff between damage and range is so steep that overall, they're the worse choice. They loose more utility for the extremely short range than they gain for the high damage where they shine. I only ever bust out the shotguns in STALKER when it's time to go into labs or tunnels and I know it's gonna be lots of very short-range fighting. And even then, I don't really feel they're better, it's just that I got lots of shotgun ammo stored up, might as well use it where it's the closest to worthwhile.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Snarelure
All that pussy protection
not opening your mouth to drink the blood of your victims
not tying a loud speaker to each ear and enjoying every decibel of their screams
I would recommend using some gloves to prevent yourself from cutting on that edge though.

I thought that spoiler was going to be a rifle from Gears of War

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Spazyfool
I see your point and agree, I suppose I'm somewhat out of touch as I mainly play vidya with realistic shotguns so I don't have to deal with the worst of it.
If you want to try some semi-realistic shotties I recommend Insurgency, RO2 and ARMA.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@viagrandad
Did you light yourself on fire? Are you posting from beyond the grave?

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Harmless_Venom
get drunk start chain-smoking with hotel matches and find out

Evilember
Evilember

@Methnerd
Are you retarded or just pretending? I was specifically referencing buckshot the whole time, the biggest baddest shot load. The only bigger load than that is a slug, but slug is essentially singular big ass shot pellet, it still not comparable to rifle bullets in terms of range and retaining energy with distance traveled.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@happy_sad
Spot a fag who never fired a gun.

100 yards my ass, holy shit look at this faggot.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Evilember
I was specifically referencing buckshot the whole time
What type of buckshot? 00, 4/0? Normal or magnum?

There's a million different varieties of shotshells, "buckshot" doesn't tell me shit.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

get destiny demo to see how terrible it is
get shotgun
looted from future military facility
its covered in futuristic shit
it has worse range and damage than the melee attack
it only holds 4 cartridges despite 8+1 civilian shotguns being cheap as shit

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

ABSTRACTION
B
S
T
R
A
C
T
I
O
N

Damage falloff is proportional to the spread of the shot at distance

@viagrandad
falling for that fake ass story

Nojokur
Nojokur

@Lord_Tryzalot
If you know your shit about firearms from Wikipedia, you shouldn't engage in arguments about it, really.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Nojokur
How ironic.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@King_Martha
Only a faggot who doesn't actually knows his shit about shotguns wouldn't know what's implied under the "buckshot" here.

Nice downwote tbh fam.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@CouchChiller
I've made shotshells with something very similar to what that fellow described. I really don't recommend shooting anything that may catch fire. In fact if you want fire just rig up some 37mm fireworks for a "Flare" gun.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

In Buttholefilled 3, I destroyed the fuck out of people using a scoped 870 with slugs. Too bad about the game sucking my goddamn ass, and being an abomination.

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