How can we discuss Left-wing politics with normies without sounding like...

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

How can we discuss Left-wing politics with normies without sounding like teenagers or role-players?

TechHater
TechHater

Talking about left-wing politics in the 21st century is pretty much on par with LARPing, considering how little power the left has and considering all its failures in the 20th century.

whereismyname
whereismyname

Quite simple.

They tell you a problem and you tell them why it is because capitalism and how to fix it without capitalism.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

the more I look at western left, the more I see third worldism as a logical and consistent ideology

WebTool
WebTool

@TalkBomber
Western left is US and GB
People without education and leaders have more chances to revolt.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@WebTool
Western left is US and GB
And germany and france and spain and maybe scandinavia and so on.
People without education and leaders have more chances to revolt.
They have more will to actually do something more than protesting and throwing a vote in the ballot box. Do you imagine sandernistas rising up and trying to create USSA?

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@CouchChiller
France and Spain has the same "left" as US.
Nordic SocDem is "left". It's not falling appart under the pressure of crisis.

Sandernistas
ACTUALLY, I think it is a possible future.
Though, the "third world" today is not the "third world" of the 80s.
No, I don't see Nigeria rising up anytime soon.
And even when they do, it ends up in warlords fighting each other.
If that's your definition of "not the ballot box", you can have it!

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@AwesomeTucker
France and Spain has the same "left" as US.
No, they are shitty socdems instead.
ACTUALLY, I think it is a possible future.
What makes you even say that?
No, I don't see Nigeria rising up anytime soon.
Of course not, especially since it's preoccupied with islamist reactionaries but left in places like le rojava or nepal has succeeded to a certain degree.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Raving_Cute
Europe has one, united left.
KEK!

future.
Well… Trump gets elected and start's enforcing his programm… people revolt.
Hillary gets and starts cencoring everything, same.

Rojava
Rojava is Kekalonia without USSR back up. (though they might succeed for that exact reason).
They are not revolting and so on, because they are "Third world". There were decades of preperation, information for the people, a leader and so on.
It's not "oh these people have less food than us, therefor they'll revolt.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Garbage Can Lid
Europe has one, united left.
Of course not, but the actual nonsocdem left hardly scores above 5%. And in place where socdems and socialists work in one party, the first group decisively dominates.
and start's enforcing his programm
He doesn't know shit, he just wants da wall and he'll likely leave the rest to his advisers
Hillary gets and starts cencoring everything, same.
How did that occupy wall street work out, hmm? :^)
They are not revolting and so on, because they are "Third world".
Well, if "Third World" isn't appropriate, then maybe you'd prefer "non-first world" or "non-western world"?

girlDog
girlDog

explain the contradictions of capitalism, when relevant of course, without coming across like a fun hater
when they're on board, explain how capitalism is inseparable from said contradictions.
introduce alternative concepts
explain how idpol is a tool used by capitalism to coral people
let them come to socialism on their own

Firespawn
Firespawn

@TalkBomber
Well, first of all you have to be aware that "normies" usually are not normal at all. Normal=/=Common.

And second, you have to find some leftists who don't act like RPG players, or total fags, or teenagers, or all at the same time. A lot of lefties are, actually, immature fags. So it will be useless trying to pretend to be something that they're not when discussing with normies.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

Most leftists are a bunch of sectarian fags who are always fighting each other and trying to impose their own snowflake version of leftism. They can't discuss things properly even with leftists, so I think it's kinda hard they'll be able to convince a "normie".

Nojokur
Nojokur

@TalkBomber
If you live if heavily anti-socialist country present leftist arguments without using using classic leftist terminology. And never, NEVER admit you're farther than a soc-dem.
no, sir, I don't want to destroy capitalism and shoot the rich, not at all :^)

TechHater
TechHater

read zizek

Not even kidding.

Here's the thing.

Normies fucking hate idpol. They react to it on a visceral level. If you want normies to actually pay attention to left wing ideas and memes, zizek is a very good start. The biggest hurdle to getting people to being interested in "the left" are leftists such as Trotskyists who sit around trying to sell their stupid paper, if they're not trying to infiltrate gay rights or whatever to hollow them out and turn them into nothing more than soapboxes for their stupid tiny trot groupsicle. Zizek (and critical theory more generally) is how you say "listen, the left is full of fuckwits, but there are aspects that are good that you will agree with" and as long as you're remotely entertaining, people will listen.

They might not identify as leftists, because leftism has such a bad fucking rap (thanks tankies, thanks trots) but if they're going around slaying idpol dragons and promoting things like worker's control or whatever then who cares?

Illusionz
Illusionz

@TechHater
(and critical theory more generally)
… You mean the hellspawn that gave birth to SJWs?

WebTool
WebTool

@Illusionz
Frankfurt School had nothing to do with it.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Illusionz

Frankfurt School wasn't behind this. SJWs are more of a butchering of Maoist conceptions of social struggle, adapted to first world sensibilities after infiltrating the radical left through some feminist and black power movements. Critical Theory isn't to blame, although I will admit that some "tools" that were developed from the general ideology have been adapted into weapons by SJWs.

If you want one thing that separates the Frankfurt School from "SJWs" it would be that the Frankfurt School were Marxists who held to a materialist understanding of oppression, whereas SJWs are effectively neoliberals offering atomised, individualised solutions to the status quo that are based around identity politics and more often than not are centred about making neoliberalism "more friendly" to marginalised minorities. It is accurate to say that critical theory in the post-WW2 era did realise that the working class wasn't inherently revolutionary and was trying to consider the revolutionary potential of non-integrated minorities, but this was still done from a materialist standpoint, the point was still something similar to socialist revolution. Contemporary idpols/SJWs are not materialists, they desire a reduction of the political field to competing particularist fiefdoms as opposed to centring politics in the material basis of oppression.

Half arsed attempt at tl;dring critical theory:

Marx said that communist revolutions would happen in the United Kingdom, in the United States, in Western Europe like Germany or France. However, revolutions did not happen in prosperous, industrialised countries: there is about a fifty year gap between Das Kapital, and the socialist, Bolshevik revolution in 1917. Of course, Lenin and his contemporaries were all douchebags, and basically made the country even crappier than it was beforehand. So a lot of socialists elsewhere wanted to explain what the fuck happened.

In 1922, a number of scholars got together and were trying to figure out why Marx was wrong, how come Marxist economics didn't work, why the Soviet Union was authoritarian and crap, and why despite society getting more and more unequal, why were fewer and fewer people getting involved in socialism?

These people became known as the Frankfurt School. They were composed of people from a number of liberal humanities disciplines, and their idea was that essentially that the role of culture and psychology and other factors weren't taken into account by Marx. There were other factors besides class that were in play, and the reason why Marx was wrong and the Soviet Union ended up being such a shitty place meant that everyone needed to understand these other factors in order to return Marxism to the emancipatory, liberatory philosophy they felt it was supposed to be. Orthodox Marxists centre capitalist relations of production and commodification, but for critical theorists

In short, they were interested in how culture and liberal society helped abstract and stave off aggression against the bourgeoisie. The key aim was to try and articulate the complex set of mediations connecting the economy, social and political institutions, culture, everyday life, and individual consciousness as parts of a reciprocally interacting social system that uphold capitalism, and to express potential alternatives to this.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Skullbone
Of course, Lenin and his contemporaries were all douchebags, and basically made the country even crappier than it was beforehand.
I'm not M-L or tankie but I would still disagree here. Nicholas II was the kind of leader that made people really, really want to kill him.

Ironically, the Soviets may have actually laid the groundwork for an actual Marxist revolution.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Illusionz
ALL CRITICAL THEORY, ALL OF IT DEBUNKED, BECAUSE OF AN INNACCURATE POL MEME. DEBORD ONLY CARED ABOUT TRANS RIGHTS RIGHT

FUCK OFF WITH THIS SHIT

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Flameblow

@Flameblow

I'd disagree, but I think what's important here is that the negative viewpoint of those who founded the Frankfurt School towards the Soviet Union was a key, if not the core, component of why they became A Thing.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@TalkBomber
By not behaving like a teenager of role-player.
Problem solved.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@TalkBomber
hey, /pol/ish here

your guys biggest problem is you use words representing complex concepts too much, like most leftists, and expect normal every day people to understand what the fuck you are talking about

part of why Trump is winning is he doesnt just listen to the people he speaks to them in ways that they can understand, "I'm going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it" being one fine example
Trump Winning
trump listenign to the people
pay attention to my point

you guys talk too much using complex concepts and it hinders your message

like that comic where /pol/ and Leeky Forums are playing a board game and talkign and Leeky Forums calls jews spooks and /pol/ says Leeky Forums talks too much about ghosts

I thought that was funny because I don't know what the fuck you guys are talking about most of the time and it seemed like /pol/ was taking the piss out of Leeky Forums

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Fuzzy_Logic
like that comic where /pol/ and Leeky Forums are playing a board game and talkign and Leeky Forums calls jews spooks and /pol/ says Leeky Forums talks too much about ghosts
I've honestly never seen that one, do you have it?

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Supergrass
I knew it was still here

@Inmate

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Fuzzy_Logic
bullshit though. Bernie's platform is "FREE SHIT," right? What could be simpler than that?

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